When I moved to Spofford Village in New Hampshire almost twenty years ago, I knew that I had found a wonderful, special place. The village of less than a thousand people sprawls across Route 9, a two-lane “interstate” linking the small towns of Brattleboro and Keene.
There is no stoplight in Spofford, so the village is easy to drive right through. About fifteen minutes from Brattleboro, however, you might catch a few glimpses of sparkling blue peeking through the thick cover of pine trees. If you turn off Route 9 towards the blue, you can drive along a smaller side road and can drive along the lake. Many of the people you find in the summer are visitors. However, if you run into a local villager you will find them friendly and easy-going, wearing comfortable clothes and probably carrying a kayak.
Lake Spofford is wonderful in the summertime. The lake is large enough for sailboats and motorboats, and there is a small island in the middle. The island is technically called “Pierce Island,” but locals sometimes refer to it as “Blueberry Island” because in July you can pick delicious blueberries from bushes that cover the island. There are also two rope swings out at the island—children spent hours competing for the best dives into the water off the swings. My home is about three miles from the lake, and my two daughters grew up at the lake. They spent almost every day of their summer vacations at the little town beach, or kayaking out to the island. The village is a wonderful place to live and raise a family.
But, I’m not the only person who grew to have an appreciation for Spofford Village and Lake Spofford. Recently, whenever I’m paddling in my kayak on the lake I take a moment to remember another Spofford Lake fan. I gaze down at the sparkling water and say, “Hi George! Nice day on the lake today, huh?”
I know that talking to a lake is completely silly and non-skeptical, but I do it anyway. Whenever I am paddling along the lake, I smile proudly knowing that part of George Carlin’s ashes were scattered here in 2008 by his brother, Patrick Carlin and daughter, Kelly Carlin-McCall. The rest of his ashes were scattered in front of comedy clubs in New York City. Carlin’s family scattered his ashes at places that Carlin remembered fondly and where he started his career in comedy.
George Carlin told some of his first jokes during his summers attending Camp Notre Dame on the shores of Lake Spofford, where he received some of his first kudos as an aspiring comedian and actor. He won camp drama awards often. One year, he won a particularly special prize: a necklace with tragedy and comedy faces. The necklace clearly meant something to Carlin. His daughter, Kelly Carlin-McCall, told the Keene Sentinel newspaper that her father was wearing that necklace when he died. George Carlin was even known to perform while wearing a Camp Notre Dame T-shirt. He remained friends with the family that had run the camp his entire life. As a teacher myself, I always try to keep the story of Carlin at Camp Notre Dame in mind. Early talent should be recognized and encouraged.
George Carlin first came into my life in Maryland when I was much younger. His “Seven Dirty Words” routine made him the favorite comedian of my friends and myself. We just didn’t re-tell his jokes. We talked about the subject of the routine. What was a dirty word? What made some words dirty and others not? What horrible thing would happen if people heard too many dirty words? How powerful are words? George Carlin never let you just hear a routine and laugh. His routines made you talk, made you think, and they stayed with you and sometimes even changed how you looked at the world and how you behaved. To say I admire George Carlin is an understatement.
George Carlin is one of my great skeptical influences. Many skeptics and atheists ( note that I do not necessarily equate the two automatically) consider Carlin a hero, a critical thinker and a critic of religion. I began to wonder how, exactly, George felt about religion. At the Amaz!ng Meeting 8 there was a lot of talk about atheism and tolerance (or indeed intolerance). I am personally a Deist, and I wondered how George would feel about my Deism and “hanging on to those delusions” of mine. So I decided to write to Carlin’s brother and ask what he thought.
George Carlin’s brother, Patrick Carlin, was extremely courteous and helpful. I am honored that he took the time to help me with my question. He also most kindly took the time to contact George’s daughter, Kelly Carlin- McCall, and ask her about her father’s beliefs or lack thereof. I wanted to share their answers to my question with the readers of this blog.
From Patrick Carlin to Kelly Carlin-McCall:
Kelly, I’m puzzled by this lady’s trip [to the Amaz!ng Meeting], but I’ve heard of The Amazing Randi. I don’t think I ever heard George say he was an atheist. I know his routines and I just heard him say:
“There is no god.” (what follows are Patrick Carlin’s words) I’m a fucking agnostic because I’m basically an optimist. I have hopes of the Big Electron being the main scene. I don’t go down the atheist trail because to me saying there is No god is as dogmatic as saying that Jesus or the mean, old angry biblical god with the beard or Allah or anyone else IS god. I say Fuckem All. If you think you know what happens after you croak, be it a sky full of cumulus clouds and herds of harp players, singers and trumpet blowers or if you are SURE there is nothing at all, you are talking about your beliefs. And, I don’t give a fuck what ANYONE BELIEVES. I deal in facts and the fact is that ANYONE from the Pope down to the lowliest holy roller or the most elite atheist of the world who says they know what comes after is FULL OF SHIT.”
My question Kelly is Do you think of your dad as an atheist? I think of him as an agnostic who really dug the idea of the Big Electron? Atheist or Big Electron leaning, Agnostic?
-Patrick
From Kelly Carlin-McCall to Patrick Carlin:
I do believe that he said that he was an agnostic in the end for the same reasons you just gave. I know about the Amazing Meeting, and have friends who attend. Dad hated any kind of dogma, and he believed that if belief gave people comfort, then leave them alone. And the fact that these Atheists now have meetings and conventions would give him lots of fodder to denounce their fundamentalism. They are all joiners in the end. He was a man who stood in the I don’t know jack shit about it all. He loved thinking about aliens and was jealous when I had a strange encounter with my mom shortly after her death.
So, there we go. George Carlin was likely an agnostic, not an atheist. And I have to be honest. While I have a belief in God, I also have to say that, when it comes down to it, I have to agree with Carlin: I don’t know jack shit about it all. And, when it comes down to it, I feel pretty good that Carlin and I agree on that.
Well that’s interesting…
“And the fact that these Atheists now have meetings and conventions would give him lots of fodder to denounce their fundamentalism. They are all joiners in the end.”
Getting together to talk about issues within atheism or skepticism is fundamentalism? I think that’s missing the point.
Also, “there is no god” is a very narrow view of atheism, and doesn’t fit many who take that label. I think there’s a definitions problem here.
Also, note that I consider myself an atheist AND agnostic. The terms are not mutually exclusive. I don’t have a belief in a god, but I don’t think it will be possible to know 100% for sure that there is not.
Nicole, I also use the term atheist AND agnostic to describe myself. I would also add apathetic :)
I can see how people would view TAM and such as fundamentalist or dogmatic if they have not been. I think it can look that way to people on the outside (and sometimes FROM the inside to me!)
I think that is very true, you can be an agnostic and an atheists, indeed almost every atheist I know is very tolerant of people that say “well I don’t know”. However there are a few, and I respect them in that they have really thought things out, that will “prove” to you scientifically that there can be no “god” (while not really defining “god” or “God”). And I’m fine with that. However, you get in any forum talk on the JREF or a good group of skeptics in the Del Mar bar, and you will get the “why would anyone NOT an atheist come to the Amazing Meeting?”. (It should be noted I think that Kelly was a trifle unsure of what the amazing meeting was, as it is not billed as an atheist meeting…though the skeptical treatment of religion is and should be examined). You get a lot of “well if you aren’t an atheist, you aren’t showing critical thinking skills! So you are NOT a skeptic” A LOT (please see PHil Plaits part three of “Don’t be a dick” at his blog on the Discovery site). Just scroll down to the comments to read lots of people that don’t believe I am a “Skeptic” because I am not an atheist, and that my belief there might be a God means I do not have the skeptic critical thinking skills to do my work with alien abductees and such. In other words, if your critical thinking skills do not lead you to the ocnclusion that 100% there is no God (and that definition is vague) then you do not belong “in the club” (whatever club). Humans are joiners. I think we need to join and belong. I’m not quitting calling myself a skeptic even though I have been told (usually by someone after they’ve had a couple of beers at the Del Mar Bar at South Point)that I shouldn’t. Trust me I’ve had “agnostic” friends yelled at. An agnostic is just an atheist that is TOO SCARED to be honest. (Well, or so I have heard, I don’t believe it…but some atheists are awfully tough on agnostics). It’s cool people can have their opinions. But telling someone “well, you don’t have a right to call yourself a skeptic” or “you shouldn’t come here” isn’t so cool. I know a skeptic and his wife practices Reiki and oddly he believes in it (“it works as she helps people”). I know Libertarian skeptics that tell me we can do just fine without any taxes as people will all just “step up and donate more”. There is no “perfect skeptic”.
Also just how cool is it that George Carlin spent summers where I live? Now to me, that’s awesome.
All I care about is that what’s brought to the table on most subjects is reasonable and rational. Skepticism is very much like consumer activism in that way. Our job, as I see it, is to promote a way to think and not what to think. We don’t have to agree on everything. (Wouldn’t it be scary if we did?) And we should be casting a pretty wide net if we want to get people to default to critical thinking.
Oh yeah. When asked, I identify as agnostic/atheist. But first and foremost, I identify as a skeptic…
wonderful David. I had to laugh as weird timing brought me an email from an alien abductee I’ve been working with. He HAD been complimenting me on how I was compassionate and didn’t just dismiss his experience. He said that most skeptics he has talked to are rude and just don’t want to listen to his “proof”. The funny thing is he googled me and read what Phil Plait had written about me in his blog. The email was a “sorry but I can’t work with you anymore. Anyone that is such an idiot that they believe in the GOD MYTH which is just a COVER UP for the TRUTH is too stupid for me to waste my time.”
The “truth” is that we were put her by aliens (which I have pointed out many scientists are investigating if the “seed” for life may have come via a comet or some other way to our Earth-with links and reading suggestions) and they have kept an eye on us and ruled us through out time. Religion was invented to keep us “calm” because we just aren’t ready for the truth.
I’m a little hurt…but then again, he was going to be a tough nut to crack!
I find it very annoying when people act like they’re entitled to have a say in my self-definition.
The statements, “you can’t be a skeptic because your not an atheist” or “an agnostic is just an atheist that isn’t being honest” suggest exclusivity and come off kinda bullying. Like, “you can’t call yourself that unless you do it on my terms.”
I don’t think there is one kind of atheist; any more than there is one kind of deist. I don’t believe in a god, so I use the term atheist in the strictest sense of the word. (Although I’m starting to wonder if I should use the word antitheist to be clear.)
I’ve definitely butted heads with other atheists because I think, “if belief (gives) people comfort, then leave them alone.” I want to set a precedent of tolerance. May not make a difference to anyone except me, but I like knowing I’m not continuing a pattern of animosity.
Ultimately, I agree with David. I think we should “promote a way to think and not what to think.”
@Kitty: “Also just how cool is it that George Carlin spent summers where I live? Now to me, that’s awesome.”
Dude, I’m just jealous over that :-P
Heidi, if I run into atheist fundamentalism at TAM, I’m just going to back away slowly. It sounds like there is way too much cool stuff going on to deal with that!
Also, Kitty, I call myself a skeptic when I hold all number of beliefs, some just unprovable at the moment (if ever), some ridiculous. (From free will to my car will never die on me because it loves me.) I admit I get annoyed when someone tells a non-atheist that they can’t be a skeptic. Although I can kind of twist myself to see their point in a way (and I probably would have agreed years ago), the bottom line is that all of us are unskeptical about SOMETHING.
Like you said, there is no “perfect skeptic.” That needs to be shouted from the rooftops, while we also shout that everyone has the capacity to be skeptical.
It remains a source of frustration to me that people continue to misunderstand the words “atheist” and “agnostic”. One deals with what we believe, the other deals with what we know. They are not mutually exclusive terms and they address different subjects.
Someone who says “there is NO god” is a Gnostic Atheist, whether they choose to use the label or not. The Gnostic Atheist is someone who knows there is no god. There are Gnostic Atheists, Agnostic Atheists, Gnostic Theists and Agnostic Theists.
It is incredibly frustrating to be accused of dogma and fundamentalism by people I admire simply because they have not bothered to learn the definitions of the terms, or to visit the events or to speak to people. I am an atheist because I live without god. I am an agnostic because I do not *know* what is out there. I am gnostic about certain, individual, theist claims because they are inherently self-contradictory and cannot be true by their own logic.
Joreth very good points. I think terminology is very important. When someone says “atheist” what are they saying? My daughters define themselves as atheists, more because they do not have a “God” in their life and live lives without religious beliefs or dogma. If it’s Sunday morning they are sleeping in, if it’s Friday they will eat meat, if it’s Ramadam they will drink during daylight hours…
I do know some atheists that really focus on the horrors of what organized religion has done. Total agreement from me that religions of all types have much to answer for and are still doing a lot of real harm. Plus some atheists come from a background where they were also treated horribly by the religions they were forced to participate in growing up. Maybe my own very happy experiences of the Episcopal Church I grew up attending, and the kindness of our priest and the great influence he had on my life for the good, has kept me from becoming an atheist. All I know is that honestly, yes, I believe and I know it’s kinda crazy that I do. To be less than honest about it, would be disrespectful of all my atheist friends and my atheist children.
Joreth,
If I wiki atheism, the terms you define are not listed. Instead, this is the definition given, “Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.”
If I go to dictionary.com, this is the definition listed, “A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.”
I’m not saying your definitions are wrong, so much as I’m saying I have no idea where you got those terms or what group of people your relying on to say there is a consensus on the definition of those terms.
As a teenage atheist (I’m now in my mid-thirties) I used the dictionary definition of atheist and agnostic, mostly becasue I didn’t have a group of people guiding my atheism. And, as a burgeoning critical thinker, I stuck with the textbook definition and I’m still find the dictionary definition to be the best way to describe myself to a stranger on the street.
You and Nicole both talk about frustration with definitions and this is not the first time I’ve heard suggested that there’s something wrong with the textbook definition of atheism…which to me empirically suggest there is more than one definition out there and people get very attached to the definitions they believe to be true.
I’m not loyal to a term, I’m just true to my self-definition. So, I’ll go with whatever term describes what I am best to the broadest range of people. When dealing with the public at large, it does seem like the best term to use is “atheist.”
But, as I stated in another comment, I think there’s more than one kind of atheist…so I’m totally down with the idea of being able to clarify what sub-class of atheism I fall into, if the atheist community could come up with some sort of consensus.
I agree with Nicole & Heidi’s first comments. The two A words aren’t mutually exclusive and I think that both of the Carlin’s use a definition of “knowing something isn’t” instead of “not believing something because there’s no reason”, à la Dawkins’ notion that people who are monotheist are atheists, not agnostics, with respect to polytheists.
I have NO idea what happens after we croak AND I sure don’t give a shit because I’ll be fucking dead. Next case.
Enjoy each day and relax about what comes next. Patrick
I would have paid money to have witnessed the “New Atheist” oligarchs Dawkins/Myers/Coyne attack Carlin as an “accomodationist”. Well, that and the response, cause the response would be the funny part. The attack itself would be kind of shrill and repetitive.
I’m very much a self-defined atheist. I was an atheist decades before I’d heard of Dawkins et al. I consider myself a true atheist not an agnostic because I believe there are no gods, but I consider this to be a faith based position. Basically science can show that it is not necessary for there to be a god. I take the next step myself with no evidence, therefore it is about faith and beliefs.
I’m actually quite happy that everything in my life is not based on critical thinking – it is not the only decision making tool we have. Obviously I think in many cases it is an excellent tool, but it isn’t the only one and sometimes it just doesn’t apply or doesn’t take us far enough and we need another way to complete the decision. Ethical questions spring to mind as an example, or of course relationships.
OK so how cool is it that Patrick Carlin posted here? Did I mention that he is a very wonderful person, with the same great take on life that his brother had.
How fortunate to have been able to speak with the Carlin family. George was brilliant as well as very funny. His decision to be outspoken served us all well. I bet he was a very interesting person to get to know. I now need to get a copy of the movie Dogma so I can watch it all the way through. I’ve seen excerpts only. Your brother was well respected by many Patrick. Thanks for sharing with us.
As to the whole exactly what happens after death from a Christian perspective. I’ll let you in on a secret. We really don’t know for sure. Its not like there are people coming back and telling us with proof and certainty exactly what and where is to be found. We like other religions with afterlife theories hope that what we believe is correct. We like everyone religious or not, haven’t a clue what happens next, other then we are dead, despite protestations to the contrary. We just hope that what we think is what it is.
My own version of the afterlife is somewhat unorthodox, especially in light of my religious preference, but its the best I can come up with. I’ll know for certain when I die…or maybe I won’t.
Yeah Sylvie, what happens when we die isn’t going to be decided by popular opinion! It is what it is.
Elizabeth, where I get my definitions is from the actual Greek definitions that the words come from. However, even your dictionary examples do not contradict what I said. The Wiki article you quoted allows for both assertive belief in no gods AND a more passive rejection of gods, including the mere absence of gods. The dictionary.com definition says “denies OR disbelieves”, which is the same idea. One is an active belief against and one is merely lacking a belief. To be more accurate, one would attach a qualifier, such as “gnostic” to the “atheist” term when speaking about those who believe in no gods, but my whole point was that agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive because they cover different concepts, and that atheists are not ALL believers in no gods because the term only covers lack of belief in gods, of which belief in no gods is one possible expression.
As I mentioned, the term “atheist” refers only to being without belief in a deity. This covers a wide range of expressions of that non-belief, from the general “well, I just don’t know, and I don’t really think of it, so you could say there is an absence of a god because I just don’t care” to the “there is NO god, absolutely I am sure of it!” viewpoints, and a bunch in between.
Both of the terms are only addressing what an individual lacks (knowledge or belief). So there is plenty of room for an individual to have additional, complimentary, or supporting viewpoints. That’s where we get terms like “secular humanist” and “free thinker” – those types of labels address what the individual is *for* rather than against or lacking. That’s also why “agnostic” and “atheist” are not mutually exclusive, because one can inform the other.
There are definitely different types of atheists. The term is a very broad term, covering only “lack of belief in a deity”. That leaves a lot of room for variation in expression and detail of belief structure. Which is why this regular imposition of a very specific type of atheism onto all atheists is so frustrating.
Austin Cline of About.com has an interesting take on the whole agnostic/atheist debate:
http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/08/24/comment-of-the-week-agnosticism-epistemic-impossibilities.htm
Oh, and here is a great resource to give to people to explain the difference between agnostic vs. atheist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIKeC9k2-Jg
Joreth,
I have to apologize becasue I didn’t make it clear to which parts of your post I was replying to. These two lines are the basis of my comment,
“Someone who says ‘there is NO god’ is a Gnostic Atheist, whether they choose to use the label or not…”
“…because they have not bothered to learn the definitions of the terms.”
As a solitary atheist, I’ve tried to educate myself about the correct “terms” to identify myself by. I’ve found a lack of consensus about the qualifiers and your reference to the label “Gnostic Atheist” is the first time I’ve ever heard of that sub-classification. And the other qualifiers I have found don’t quite fit my self-definition.
I understand your frustration about “regular imposition of a very specific type of atheism onto all atheists” becasue I’d like to be able to label myself correctly. I’m not an agnostic, I don’t have any use of a higher power so I choose not believe there are god(s).
But I feel like if I’m going to take up the cause of introducing the public to a new term, in order to correctly define myself, I want there to be some agreement on what the correct terms are. At the moment the popular definition of the word atheist, as messed up as it is, correctly represents me.
Now, since I’m an activist, I would totally participate in the discussion with the existing communities in order to try to get some sort of agreement…but my passion does not lie in pushing forward that discussion.
I think if we return to what Carlin said, we don’t need to boil it down to whether he was an agnostic or agnostic atheist or atheist. He’s given us enough in the statements he’s made.
To try and pigeon hole him classify him’s a little pointless.
Elizabeth the term isn’t new, it’s been around since Ancient Greece. Gnosis means knowledge and specifically refers to knowledge of a mystical nature. Putting an “a” before a word is a grammatical rule that makes the word into the phrase “without”, as in “without knowledge”.