I hate writing about feminist issues, because every time I do I get accused of being a feminazi or caring more about women than men, or of buying into victim culture, or any number of accusations that come with the territory. Feminism isn’t generally my main issue, and so I’m always hesitant to distract from all the other things I care about by getting into knock down, drag out fights about why should I care about how women are treated or how they’re portrayed in the media.
Occasionally, of course, I do write something about feminism, because I’m upset enough to ignore the warning lights in my head that say I’m going to have to deal with a lot of BS because of it. As you might imagine, this post is me ignoring those warning bells.
Skepticism has a woman problem. It’s been said more than once, it’s been pointed out countless times, and it’s being addressed in a lot of positive ways that should absolutely count in its favor. I don’t want to dismiss or underplay the fact that there are a lot of men in the movement who care a lot about this issue and are actively working to fix it.
That said, the amount of privilege and harassment
I see coming from a number of the powerful men in the movement is really distressing. The assumption that young women are taking advantage of older men or that men have the automatic right to presume sexual interest and the right to sexually harass young women is a problem, and it’s a problem within this movement, not just outside of it.
This problem came up today, because Lawrence Krauss, a respected scientist and one of the featured speakers at TAM9, defended his buddy Jeffrey Epstein, a man who plead guilty to hiring underage girls, some as young as 13, to have sex with him. Krauss is skeptical of the claims because he always thought the girls around Epstein were 19-23 and apparently thinks it’s ok to have sex with a 13 year old so long as you think she’s 18. He also doesn’t seem to understand that a 13 year old having sex with a powerful, rich man has been coerced into it, no matter what. Ignorance is no excuse there, it’s rape and it’s taking advantage of a child.
He is also skeptical of the claims made by the prosecution, despite the fact that Epstein plead guilty and they did an 11-month sting operation documenting his activity. And they have his, apparently horrific, diary.
It gets worse.
DJ Grothe, on the Skepchick article about this, comments , saying basically that he doesn’t know anything about the situation, but he lied about his age when he was under 18 so that he could get laid, so maybe underage prostitution isn’t that bad. I appreciate that he’s not saying that sex with a 13 year old is OK, he specifically says it isn’t, but since that’s what actually happened, I’m really not sure why he felt the need to defend Krauss. Nor do I understand how he is also missing the power play aspect of this. Epstein took underage women who were not prostitutes and coerced them into sexual acts, using money and power. This is not acceptable behavior, even if you’re OK with prostitution and 16-year-olds having sex.
This isn’t a question of the legality of prostitution or what the age of consent should be. This is a question about abuse of power, non-consensual sex and sex trafficking of minors.
I wish I could tell you that this blindness to abuse of privilege and power existed only in response to this one issue, but it permeates the skeptic movement. Many of the men in this movement are guilty of abusing their power to take advantage of the women in the movement or to hurt them when they won’t agree to sex, or turning a blind eye to the behavior or other men who are guilty of similar behavior.
If I could tell you all the horror stories I’ve heard, all the individuals who have been mistreated, insulted, taken advantage of by men in this movement, you’d be shocked. If I told you the number of men I’ve been told that I need to be careful around because they have a “problem with young women”, you might not believe me. Unless you’re a woman, and then you’ve probably heard some of it yourself.
I believe these stories because I’ve been at the receiving end of some egregious behavior and I’ve seen a lot of it with my own eyes. The women in the movement ignore it because it’s less important to us than our desire to be part of a community that matters to us. Hell, I don’t even feel comfortable talking about it because I know it’s going to make me unpopular, I don’t want to list anyone’s name because I just don’t feel comfortable with the backlash that would come with it. I can’t bring myself to do it and I feel absolutely ashamed for that.
When a powerful scientist asks a young women who is trying to be taken seriously in the sciences if she’d like to be his next mistress after meeting her once, that’s an abuse of power. When a powerful man implies he’ll help a woman out if he sleeps with her, that’s an abuse of power. When a powerful man implies he will blackball a woman if she doesn’t sleep with him, that’s an abuse of power. When a powerful man dismisses or insults a woman because she doesn’t want to sleep with him, that’s an abuse of power. There’s a word for coercing women into having sex.
I doubt this will be read by powerful men in the movement, but if it is, I just want to say that you have a responsibility to set an example as to how women should be treated and where their value should come from. If you think women are only sex objects and you only care about the young, pretty ones who don’t seem too frigid, how on earth are we going to be taken seriously by everyone else?
Why is it that when I go to conferences I have to be hyper-vigilent to the behavior of men whose opinions I respect?
*http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tits+of+gtfo
Thank you for calling some prominent people out on this. I have heard stories, though am too new to the movement to have any real experiences with them myself. I am fortunate to be in an area where the local skeptic movement is primarily populated by respectful males who understand women are more than skirts to get under.
I second afterthree’s comment! I’ll add that a couple of more “notable” skeptic men that I have interacted with are incredibly polite and intelligent and encouraging of new members and their contributions, and really should serve as a model for the rest.
Skepticism: Respect, or GTFO
Well written, thoughtful and cogently argued. I hope to see more women (and men, for that matter) ringing the alarm bells when this kind of objectification arises. I’ve learned of a great deal of this kind of behavior in my skeptic years, but it’s always well-after the fact.
And that’s kind of the problem: it rarely reaches the ears of sympathetic skeptic men until it’s too late, and the damage has been done.
I would encourage more people (men and women) to discuss feminism and skepticism, as they are both universally-applicable human values.
It’s a great post on a rather difficult subject.
Honestly, I had no idea it was so bad and feel doubly ashamed both as a skeptic and as a male.
It’s certainly a discomfortable subject to tackle…
Still, it is important to deal with it openly and I really appreciate your efforts to do so.
I’d just like to thank these men for making it that much harder for the rest of us to build meaningful connections (whether they be business, social, collaborative, friendship, or yes, romantic) with likeminded people than it already was. It’s hard enough to track down anyone in our world who fits our interests in rationality and critical thought, making these groups and events and circumstances that much more valuable.
To realize that what we’re trying to ensure is a proper societal representation (in other words roughly 50/50, not counting transgenders and the like) of the genders and yet half of them are going to have fair reason to be wary of our every move does both genders a complete disservice. Nobody should have to constantly question the motivations of the person they’re communicating with, nor should that person be forced to have to watch their every move to ensure they’re not mistaken for one of the jerks.
In my case I have no choice but to carry on as I have, respecting every damn person I meet in this movement until they prove otherwise, regardless of gender, ethnicity, age, etc., and hope I manage to earn and maintain the same from them. It just takes a little more effort than it should have thanks to some people.
Thank you Nicole for posting this. I contend this issue of powerful men abusing their power is not in the least unique to skepticism, unfortunately. I ran into this myself both in college and industry. We’ve all seen examples in sports, entertainment and politics. While powerful men in the skeptical community could be better than other powerful men, I have seen no compelling evidence that they are any different on average.
There are a few prominent skeptical men who have been very polite and supportive to me via email, etc. (Thanks Simon!) Too bad we have to speak of them as the exceptions to the bigots.
For a movement that is supposed to be rational and progressive, I have been continually disappointed on this front. How can any compassionate human being excuse this abhorrent behavior? We all, rightfully, attack pedophile priests… I’m saddened to learn that some skeptical luminaries are more concerned attacking religion than pedophiles apparently. Ick, ick.
Krauss’ stance, propped up by Grothe’s idiotic opinion, and your shrouded comments about how awful skeptical events are for women, make me want to flee. I don’t want any part of this nonsense. How can anyone, any human being, agitate in favor of abusing children?
Krauss, Grothe, et. al. have handily surrendered any credibility they might have had with the general public on other important scientific and rational issues.
Thanks for writing about this. I need to go vomit now.
That is the point, Laurie. They should be better.
Not because skeptics are special or moral or higher up the pedestal, but because critical thinking is allegedly the basis of the movement.
Critical thinking doesn’t mean debunking ghosts or vaccinating your kids or being an atheist. It’s about approaching claims with a questioning or analysing spirit. And that includes cultural claims about gender or race. It includes analysing your own actions.
I have no problems with people not being completely rational – we all have areas where it is harder for us to be critical and that’s human. But a skeptical group should be better than the average population because there should be some people in the group who are thinking and analysing, and the rest of the group should have a commitment to listening. Otherwise how is it skeptical?
I was initially pretty surprised at the reaction to my comment on the Krauss thread at Skepchick, and to the reactions to Krauss’s explanations for his withholding judgment about his friend’s possible guilt. But after reading these comments more carefully, I think I do better understand the negative reaction and want to apologize for how my comment may have come across. My thoughts about injustice as it pertains to media bias and sex laws are largely based on my own experience of injustice as a gay man, and also in terms of the way laws around sexuality are sometimes used to punish people unfairly. I wasn’t thinking about it in terms of exploitation, which is clearly important. I stand by my view that laws regarding age of consent and prostitution, and the ways these laws are applied, should probably be looked at more skeptically. But that comment was ill-timed. I understand how, in the context of the other comments, it may have looked like I was trying to dismiss the harm done by sex trafficking. I wish it had been obvious that that wasn’t my intent at all, and I sincerely regret that it came across that way.
@DJ Thank you for taking the time to comment here, I know you weren’t trying to be insensitive, and I appreciate that you recognize how it could be seen that way, and how that’s particularly hurtful when it’s coming from leaders in the movement. It is so important for women to feel like we’ve got allies, particularly men, particularly men who are leaders, so you stepping forward means a lot to me.
I agree with you that age of consent laws and prostitution laws are not always, if ever, absolutely correct in this country, and I know that that’s true gay or straight, and much, much more difficult if you’re gay because of the way the law treats older men who are “corrupting” the youth by “turning them gay”. If you want to have that conversation, I think most of us would be happy to have it and hear what you’ve got to say, just not when the conversation is about sex trafficking, abusing children, and abusing power to take advantage of others.
*clapclapclapclapclap*
Why are some skeptic men so threatened by feminist theory?
It is something I truly do not get. Feminists are *allies* of skepticism, atheism and critical thinking. Sure, there are some aspects who go too far, but painting all of feminism with a broad (no pun intended) brush because of some revisionists or anti-science (science = tool of the patriarchy) is like painting all of skeptics as global warming deniers and libertarian assholes.
In fact, I think I first started really embracing feminism and the label feminist after attending the Global Atheist Convention and seeing how many women were there, and hearing stories of how many of these women came to their atheism through feminism.
So it truly puzzles as to why, when someone shows a hint of the kind of feminism that threatens the boy’s club nature of skepticism (girls are allowed, but only if they are willing to play-up to our puerile, patriarchal fantasies of what girls should be like) out come the torches and pitchforks: “A WITCH!! BURN HER!!”
@DJ:
Thank you for providing an excellent example of learning from criticism, which should be a requirement for calling oneself a skeptic. May others follow your lead.
I also thank DJ for clarifying his comments. I agree that the issue of age of consent and such does need to be looked at again.
I really felt badly one TAM when I asked “well where is ???? She is so nice, I was realy looking forward to seeing her this year.” When I was told why she wasn’t there, I was in shock. And people were “yeah, another TAM another notch in the belt”. I mean if I know, and I am always out of the loop, everyone knows. Consenting adults and all that (though misinformation seems to be a part of the modus operandi here). So what to do? Well what I don’t think the few bad apples get is what women do is talk and say “oh gosh look out for HIM”. What is also nice is a lot of men also go out of their way to warn women and talk to them “you know he will tell you that he’s seperated, he’s not ok. Believe me on this, I really want you to know that”. Maybe this is like real life? We run across all types. And with skepticism it’s a movement, it’s not a job with the same legal protections. But I would say the majority, the VAST majority of skeptic male and female I have met have been wonderful and are upset enough with poor behavior by some to really go out of their way to warn EVERYONE (and trust me if it get to ME that means everyone knows) about these bad apples.
We are a supportive environment, at least the majority. Sadly the movement is reflective of society as a whole. It’s a strenght, more minorities, more various economic levels, more nationalities…but also a weakness…we have to put up with MORE. THat doesn’t mean we have to be quiet about it though!
http://indieskeptics.com/2011/04/09/rights-and-wrongs/
good article! I put up a few of my own thoughts here…
Nice work, all around.
I’ve been hearing things like this myself for a couple years. Always in hushed tones. Always with a tacit “don’t tell anyone you heard it from me…”
My question is — what do we do when we encounter this? As male who tends to be oblivious to such things, I don’t have much in the way of “best practices” for these situations. So far, the reaction seems to be either shocked silence or sniggering with friends later.
What’s the best way to shine some light on this behavior? Even in this article, Ashley refers to “powerful men,” and I suspect a lot of the women reading this are nodding knowingly. I’m not suggesting that Ashley start posting names from encounters at TAM 8 or Dragon*Con, but there has to be something we can do at the time to discourage this — “we” being either the target of this unwanted attention or a disgusted witness.
So if I happen to roll up on Mr. Famous Skeptic trying to coerce some young lady into something, what do I do?
I feel that some public exposure (so to speak) would stop a lot of these guys in their tracks while simultaneously warning other potential targets to be wary. But a shouted denouncement from the podium might cause more problems than it solves.
How do we take this from the “this really should stop” stage to the “okay, we are stopping this nonsense now” stage?
Name names. Tell every one you meet at the convention. Make a note of it on your blogs. Don’t engage in gossip, just speak your truth.
When a topic JREF about how to improve TAM entails banning someone from attending because he’s a sexist jackass its not really all that surprising.
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